Strategy and Tactics of the Enemy

Preliminary info on T'ien Ch'i. They are vet 3 as my harpy found out when reaching the province near the cap. Can't tell what's in the v3 cap at the moment. From the battle between TC and Indies (245), about 20 footmen arranged in what looked like 4 small groups. Backed up by about 10 archers, an Imperial Alchemist and their prophet (a stealthy Consort with the spy ability). In the footmen groups it looked like the rearmost one was a bit behind the front few, as though the vet player used a one man group behind each one. Though this just may be the way they are displayed. TC routed the indies fairly easily. Standard early magic use.

Septimius Severus wrote:Preliminary info on T'ien Ch'i. They are vet 3 as my harpy found out when reaching the provine near the cap. Can't tell what's in the v3 cap at the moment. From the battle between TC and Indies (245), about 20 footmen arranged in what looked like 4 small groups. Backed up by about 10 archers, an Imperial Alchemist and their prophet (a stealthy Consort with the spy ability). In the footmen groups it looked like the rearmost one was a bit behind the front few, as though the vet player used a one man group behind each one. Though this just may be the way they are displayed. TC routed the indies fairly easily. Standard early magic use.

OK, that's DrPraetorius, does anyone have any experience against him previously? If so, any thoughts to share?

Pangaea, Agartha, and Abysia, he's your target - time to start coordinating on how to take him down.

BTW, was the Alchemist the sole leader (might mean what he can attack the next turn)? In any event, sounds like he's out site-searching. He's got ZERO magic research going on, so if P, A, and A, can press him ASAP (yeah, I know, you need to take care of business near home first), he may be vulnerable.

Sorry, doctor p is before my time. I'm not really that familiar with him.

rdonj wrote:Sorry, doctor p is before my time. I'm not really that familiar with him.

Well, if Pangaea, Agartha, and/or Abysia are super anal and competitive, you could search under his name in the Forums to see what he's posted over the years.

But heck, today's been my day off, and I've been drinking (we're all 18+ here, right?), so there's no way I'm gonna do that

But any uber-ninja, hardcore min-max player, might just unearth a few facts there...

So, someone has a scout over Dr. P, right? What the heck is T'ien Chi doing? I (Shinuyama) am strictly dominating him in virtually every graph - provinces, income, research, dominion, army size, you name it. (Army size is rather impressive since I have one of the smaller armies in the game). The only thing he's beating me on is gem income (by 1).

I think I'm only really sad my war machine won't run into him (over him?) first. Seriously, it looks like his start is pretty poor, whomever is hitting him should make it a rush, because he might just collapse.

Fwiw, T'ien Chi's stats:
Provinces: 3
Income: 810
Gem Income: 6
Research: 10
Dominion: 73
Army Size: 93


Other Vet nation reviews. Numbers in italics are weak relative to the field. Numbers in bold are strong relative to the field. I'm not going to signal any army size as strong or weak because it may just be the difference between chaffe and quality troops.

Ermor:
Provinces: 4
Income: 735
Gem Income: 5
Research: 10
Dominion: 102
Army Size: 114

Vanheim:
Provinces: 4
Income: 697
Gem Income: 5
Research: 14
Dominion: 90
Army Size: 104

Marignon
Provinces: 3
Income: 651
Gem Income: 5
Research: 75
Dominion: 116
Army Size: 168

This is the first one who seems to actually be strong somewhere. That 75 research is scary.

Eriu:
Provinces: 3
Income: 585
Gem Income: 5
Research: 129!
Dominion: 91
Army Size: 85

I need a double-bold for that research. That's just crazy. Baalz, what are you up to?

Ashdod:
Provinces: 5
Income: 756
Gem Income: 6
Research: 0
Dominion: 70
Army Size: 86

The only vet to have 5 provinces already, he doesn't seem to be getting much income for having done so.

Edit: Emphasized Eriu's research further -rdonj

With 129 research, Baalz has reached level 3 in something. If he's going for conjuration, he's got Call of the Wind and any poorly defended province is up for grabs. He's got gems enough for two castings this turn or three casting next turn. It seems like conjuration is an unlikely early goal for Eriu, but it would be the fastest route of attack.

Does anyone care to speculate on whether or not my unbuilt forts are in danger this turn? (I'm assuming that my dominion and income scores have made a target out of my poor lizards.)

Call of the wind is pretty crap. If you have more than 1 pd in a province it will pretty much fail. So it's only a danger if you are completely unprotected.

Turn 5 Vet overview. As before, italics is weak, bold is strong, and army size will not be rated.

T'ien Chi:
Provinces: 4
Income: 921
Gem Income: 6
Research: 30
Dominion: 97
Army Size: 123

Research 30 is marginally better than weak, but its a close call.

Ermor:
Provinces: 6
Income: 961
Gem Income: 5
Research: 15
Dominion: 136
Army Size: 152

Pretty average, all things considered. Research is a little weak.

Vanheim:
Provinces: 6
Income: 871
Gem Income: 5
Research: 28
Dominion: 113
Army Size: 142

Another average nation.

Marignon
Provinces: 4
Income: 782
Gem Income: 5
Research: 100
Dominion: 132
Army Size: 147

Still strong in research, weak in income and provinces.

Eriu:
Provinces: 7
Income: 845
Gem Income: 5
Research: 178!
Dominion: 104
Army Size: 82

Ok, I don't know what Baalz did, but he just exploded into a reasonably powerful contender. His research is still crazy, and now he's above average on provinces. Watch out!

Ashdod:
Provinces: 7
Income: 898
Gem Income: 6
Research: 0
Dominion: 83
Army Size: 108

Good expansion, but really lagging on research and dominion.

Looks like Eriu is the nation to beware.

That's a great analysis of the vet turn activity Squirreloid. You should post that on the shrapnel thread. It will annoy them tremendously (which makes me happy) and spark some conversation as well. If you could do it on a regular basis even better.

Thanks.

Ashdod's research seems pretty typical for how ashdod would normally expand, so he's probably doing exactly what you'd expect.

I expect eriu to have 12+ provinces after the next turn

rdonj wrote:Ashdod's research seems pretty typical for how ashdod would normally expand, so he's probably doing exactly what you'd expect.

I expect eriu to have 12+ provinces after the next turn

Egads. Does this thing have a turn by turn replay where we can watch what everyone did? Because it really needs one. And I want to experience the awesome that is Baalz firsthand.

Squirrelloid wrote:

rdonj wrote:Ashdod's research seems pretty typical for how ashdod would normally expand, so he's probably doing exactly what you'd expect.

I expect eriu to have 12+ provinces after the next turn

Egads. Does this thing have a turn by turn replay where we can watch what everyone did? Because it really needs one. And I want to experience the awesome that is Baalz firsthand.

No but people can post a screenshot of any battles (from scouts or direct contact) showing enemy formations/tactics and such either here or more maybe more appropriately in the images thread. Further a composite map of vet and noob holdings could probably be produced that way as well.

When games end the llamaserver archives the turns. Or at least it did. Anyway, you could probably request the turn files once the game is over. The game being the sort it is, I don't think people would really object to that.

Also, Septimius is currently running the province race quite well. He has the most provinces currently of any nation in the game.

rdonj wrote:When games end the llamaserver archives the turns. Or at least it did. Anyway, you could probably request the turn files once the game is over. The game being the sort it is, I don't think people would really object to that.

Also, Septimius is currently running the province race quite well. He has the most provinces currently of any nation in the game.

He does. I decided not to take the 5% risk of pretender annihilation on turn 1 due to amazons/bloodhenge druids in forest, otherwise I'd be right up there with him. Between that and being able to start building a fortress now instead of next turn (took away a commander for leading troops) I'm a little slower than expected, but still on my way to a comfortable 25 or so provinces year 1, barring interference (which I'm expecting soon).

Yeah, you're doing fine. Only ulm and pangaea having more provinces than you is not bad at all. Thus far it looks like the average rate of expansion for noobs and vets is very close.

rdonj wrote:Yeah, you're doing fine. Only ulm and pangaea having more provinces than you is not bad at all. Thus far it looks like the average rate of expansion for noobs and vets is very close.

I think what's going to come as a tremendous shock to the Vets is just how asymmetric N00b growth is relative to placement. The upper 4 N00b players are all expanding rapidly and will end up hitting V1/2 like a ton of bricks. I can see this game turning into a race between the vets to exploit weaker N00b starts on the bottom while the N00bs at the top create a flank and march down it.

Does the phrase 'defeat in detail' mean anything to you? Because if we win I think that's what it'll look like.

----------
New discussion:
I'm not familiar with most of the nations the vets are playing - what kind of magic can/should we expect out of them. The 'no attacking home provinces' ban ends starting next turn - should I expect Baalz to start mind hunting random starting provinces or something else crazy like that?

This is an entirely plausible scenario. Currently the top noobs outnumber the uppermost vet provinces by at least 18 provinces. On the bottom the noob province lead is much smaller, with a maximum possible lead of 11. But it's actually only 3 tip noobs that are going towards the two end vets so the ratio drops quite a bit. So it's really more like 12 and 5.

In the middle, TC is currently outnumbered by 14, and vet 4 is outnumbered by a maximum of 11.

The numbers will probably change a bit as you close in on each other, hopefully for the better. I am sure in particular bandar log and arco will look a bit more healthy over the next few turns barring any major setbacks, which should shift the odds a bit in their respective theatres.

This is all assuming you stick to the original proposed strategy of course. Depending on what things look like at the end of the initial expansion phase I think a situational review may be in order.

Edit: I'm going to try to stay away from making posts like this in the future. You guys can speculate if you want to but I shouldn't.

From what I have seen, T'ien Ch'i is currently either capturing his cap neighbors or possibly heading north. My scout is moving to V2 this turn.

Well, based on the timing, I'm 99.99% sure that Baalz has researched Alteration to level three for Mistform and deployed Sidhe Lords as (semi-solo) self-buffing thugs for independant expansion. If you are attacked by these guys before they have a chance to employ vine shields/brands and you don't have access to evocation-based counters, simple swarm tactics are best: deploy size 1 units or size 2 units with 2 attacks in massive numbers. Good luck deploying to the right place at the right time, though!

Hmm, just some speculation. Last game due the map and other factors, the vets sorta ganged up or coordinated assualts on our weakest/most inexperienced/most strategically vulnerable players first. Correct me if I am wrong about that (rdonj, lumen, lavaere) my memory is not what is once was.

This map and placement really doesn't offer them that same opporunity on land anyway. They could conceivably coordinate attacks between the northern and southern hemispheres, in that case the southern hemisphere's weakest/most inexperienced noobs may be the first victims. I remember they went for viccio fairly early last game. But our strategy/placement should help prevent a rerun.

Septimius Severus wrote:Hmm, just some speculation. Last game due the map and other factors, the vets sorta ganged up or coordinated assualts on our weakest/most inexperienced/most strategically vulnerable players first. Correct me if I am wrong about that (rdonj, lumen, lavaere) my memory is not what is once was.

This is pretty much true, yes. Caelum jumped on abysia as there was nothing abysia could do to fight him. Then they jumped on c'tis since they thought he was weak and would be an easy kill. They took a while killing lanka and sauromatia, but basically they attacked hard on the one flank and concentrated their efforts to bring down one person between two or more of them.

No kinding they took there time killing off Lanka. Actually after the game I was remember reading. How the vets had told them to kill of Lanka, but because I was playing more agressive then the others Caelum didn't want to. After all I was trying to use there own tactics on them by sitting in there forts and setting high taxes to increase unrest. Though once it became Lanka vs Caelum & Jotunheim it was harder to be aggresive against them.

As for this game, they can't exactly use that same tactic of making an unrest border around there nations.
The only thing I know is we need to be alot more aggresive. As soon as the Capital NAP times out, head straight for there capital and sit on it. After we complete that small task, mop up the rest of there regions

My scout has reached the capital of V2. It is Ashdod. From what I can see the cap contains 4 Sheshai Anakites. Ashdod has taken all 6 provinces surrounding their cap and all of them appear to be void of troops. Don't know where the other three provinces and Ashdod's main forces are. Don't see any indication of them from where I am.

By the process of elimination that means V4 must be Eriu.

Septimius Severus wrote:My scout has reached the capital of V2. It is Ashdod. From what I can see the cap contains 4 Sheshai Anakites. Ashdod has taken all 6 provinces surrounding their cap and all of them appear to be void of troops. Don't know where the other three provinces and Ashdod's main forces are. Don't see any indication of them from where I am.

By the process of elimination that means V4 must be Eriu.

Excellent. I think i'd much rather be dealing with Ashdod. I have this feeling he isn't moving towards me or I'd know by now, unless he's just spiralling outward...

Eriu's research lead doesn't look nearly as scary anymore compared to Caelum and Arco, and his expansion tailed off. The real worrying thing is he found (i assume?) a fortress, which will let him build commanders faster.

My own research looks kind of pathetic by comparison right now. Once i get a fortress up and running i might start to catch up.

I doubt he "found" that fortress. My plan with C'tis would have let me have a fortress this turn had the forest to my east not been occupied by Bloodhenge Druids. Of course, he had a great sage instead of a dragon... he's good, but maybe he found that fort, after all.