NvV3: Pre-game Discussion

Joelz - Well thats two of my least favourites avoided

I am happy to pick last. Especially if I can choose TC as an alternative

Are we picking our start positions too?

If I am going close to the Vets - and please don't pin too much hope on me - I'm rubbish then obviously I'd like a nation with a bit of early power. But TC can be made into a decent starter with an awake SC so we probably have that covered anyway.

It's probably better to keep at least some of our mid/late game summoners/SC powers off the front line. So maybe Pythium, Bandar, Abysia (we need them to blood hunt in peace) & Jotun should not all start close to the Vets? Pythium and Abysia may be strong early but we want them especially late on. And they need a bit of research (especially Pythium) to be at their best. As Jotun does not need much research to make its skrattis good and has bless options and Bandar have Elephants maybe those can be put closer.

As for those powers who are going to start close to the Vets (the four ends of our two crescents) I would recommend the following nations. Arco (Elephants, rush to Paralise for astral mages vs SCs), Caelum (Mammoths), C'Tis (poison & spills the miasma half on to the vets) and someone else who has a fairly strong start

I am not really familiar with a lot of our powers. Any suitable for a bless strategy? Ermor, Vanheim & Mictlan were but we don't have any of those However the upside to this is they are likely to have less awake SCs. Maybe....

Honestly, I've never played MP, so I don't know if I should be at one of the tips or not. It might be a good idea to put me there with C'tis: If they are really likely to avoid the dominion effect (miasma), then that would give me time to do the 3-fortifications-up-on-turn-6 start I came up with the other day... the downside is that I may be delayed by a turn or two if I encounter truly BAD luck. Also, for the first 6 or 7 turns, I will have ZERO research. After that I'll be pumping out two marshmasters every turn, plus whatever I build in my capitol.

My early game is solid, but once we have contact with the vets, I may fall like a house of cards.

Anyway, if I'm on one of the tips, I guess I should take:

1) C'tis (I might be in trouble if Ermor started nearby)
2) Pythium (not sure I can hold out with this one, but it's possible)
3) Agartha (Risky due to lack of experience)
4) Arco - blah :-)

If I'm on NOT on the tip, here's what I'd prefer:

1) Bandar Log
2) Caelum
3) Pythium
4) Agartha

I can probably manage the fast start with any of the first three and possibly with Agartha.

Please let me know where and who you want me to be ASAP, so I can perfect the start...

Oops... it looks like the best I can do with these start positions with C'tis on the ends of the crescents is to have my second fort up on turn 5 in the south (or turn 6 up north) and my third fort would be up on turn 7 - it's the 4-turn build time for everything but mountains. On the bright side, I'll be able to do a little research or site searching.

Maybe my first post wasn't very helpful as you are actually after a list of nations so you can divide them out.

With the understanding that I will play any power any where. Or possibly switch to TC if it's not one of our core powers.

If I am next to the Vets on the Tip:

1) Arco
2) Jotunheim
3) Bandar
4) Caelum

But TC would also be a good choice for the tips.

If I am not starting at the tips:

1) Jotunheim
2) Bandar
3) Abysia
4) Agartha (underwater options and time to build up the Dom boosted Statues)

PS - All the ones that start far from the Vets should still charge towards them so we get everyone in to play as soon as possible. Every vet needs to worry about all his borders. It is just some nations need a bit of time to build up. Or need to research or blood hunt rather than fight for their existence from the start to reach full potential. For example Pan can build up lots of freespawning maeneds and maybe do something with the carrion woods/carrion beast reannimations. But these take time to build up. If they start at the very front I think only a serious bless on the white Centaur would save them (and that kills the carrion woods strat). So all the back powers still need to get a front line as soon as possible to add pressure to the Vets. Vets will soon start raiding via cloud trapeze / teleport and stealth anyway so nowhere is safe.

On second thoughts maybe C'Tis should be back. I was worried about their Miasma affecting allies. But maybe them being back so they can build up undead and castles for their recruit anywhere mages is best? They might get rolled over very early at the front before the rest of us can rescue them?

Since I don't get Skaven, I'm not to bothered who you give me and where I start.

I really doubt the vets are going to want to charge right into C'tis off the bat, particularly if C'tis takes a dom 10 god.

What I was thinking of for placement is something along these lines:


------1------V------7
---2---------V---------8
3--------------V----------9
4----------V--------------10
---5---------V---------11
------6------V------12



1.Jotunheim
2.Ulm
3.Bandar Log
4.Caelum
5.Shinuyama
6.Pythium
7.C'tis
8.Pagaea
9.Agartha
10.Abyssia
11.Machaka
12.Arcoscephale

First line:
This way we've got four strong nations on our first line (Jotun, Pyth, C'tis, Arco). C'tis I definately want way up front for their miasma,

Second line: I put pangaea next to C'tis because of all our nations, pan would be the least affected by any bleed-over miasma into their territory.
Ulm is on second line so that they can bring their guardians forward to counter sacreds as needed fairly early. Machaka is on second line because their webbing could be useful early game, and
shinuyama is on second line so that they have quick access to the front when they want it, but are not likely to be thrown right into combat with vets so they have a little time to build up.


I put bandar log and abyssia in our back row specifically to give them time to build up - I want late game blood, and Bandar gets powerful late game as well. Agartha I put in the back row because they are going to be terrible early game, and they need time to build up, and Caelum I put in the back row because with flying they can reach the front row pretty much whenever they want, and they could be vulnerable to an early game rush closer to the front.

Of the ones we got, I'd be fine playing any of the following:

Machaka
Pangaea
Shinuyama
Ulm
Jotunheim

However, I have no builds at all worked out for these. We need to finalize these results ASAP so I can get in some practice starts.

Your choices for corner position races sounds good, melnorjr, and if you'd like me to take a corner position, I'll be happy to play any of your choices there. Let's just hope I can live up to expectations in those critical locations

I'll second LumenPlacidium in getting the picks out of the way fast so we can get in plenty of practice.

One thing about C'tis, you really should have a high dominion if you want the miasma to be much deterrent. Lowish levels of dominion don't really build diseases up very quickly, the chance seems to be much higher when a province has high dominion. Plus the miasma increases your gold income. So dom 8+ is probably the way to go.

It just occurred to me that poison clouds are probably the perfect counter to Vans (no attack roll, no MR)... without Poison Resistance, they would be screwed. Tuatha and Sidhe Lords can come by that via nature magic though... we'll need a different approach for them.

Frozen heart (1W, but takes decent research) and I assume blood magic like leech is awesome against vandrotts.

Regarding jotunheim, if you are playing around in SP trying to get familiar, then aside from the other stuff I mentioned before I'd suggest playing around with the Black Heart misc item. I think that a skratti who has transformed into wolf form could use it along with another item (reinvig or damage immunity/luck) to make an assassin that immediately changes shape into a skratti and frozen hearts/leeches the other commander to death on turn #2. Haven't had time to play with it much yet though. I also think that the skratti will auto-change to wolf form after the battle and remain stealthy. Keep in mind that any items that aren't misc items on a skratti when it changes to wolf will be lost forever.

Not until they get some research done, so C'tis' poison should be very effective during the expansion and early conflict phase. I'm sure it would be great with your various archer/javelinist "pull" strategies, as enemy units (OK, the vets might be too smart for this, but it should work fine against indies) wade through cloud after cloud of poison chasing your pullers.

Yeah, I think Pan might make a good neighbor too - if they've taken good scales, they can easily prop up dominion within their borders with cheap 200gp temples. And if they've taken crap scales (either for an awake Gorgon or for an early casting of Carrion Woods + maenads), well, if some Miasma bleeds across the border now and then, we'll, they won't be loosing much, will they? Teammates might need to kick in some gold though for an occasional temple so they don't get completely "swamped"

Regarding set up on your chart, melnorjr, I'd put the two strongest nations at positions 6 & 7 - the way the Vets' line bends in the middle, races at those two points could conceivably have a front with 3 Vets at a time (the Vets might even make that attempt at local numerical superiority part of a strategy - try to concentrate hard on one flank, and then just roll us up one at a time).

So who should those two be? C'tis with their Miasma and skeli-spam? And who else?

Of course, it's imperative for all teammates to press forward to relieve pressure on those nations on "point". And if the Vets do try to concentrate on one or both of those more exposed points, our 3rd and 4th most powerful races need to crank up the pressure to the Vets' 'rear' ASAP.

Unoptimized may also be a good candidate for one of the critical crescent tips. Don't recall his having posted yet though.

I reiterate my choices, pretty much:

1. Pythium
2. Pangaea
3. Caelum
4. Agartha might be nice.
5. Arco perhaps.

But since I won't be on the tips, if you need those nations for those positions, I'll take whatever you give me Melnorj.

Melnorj, you may want to handle placement in a seperate thread, first things first is what I always say. Though you'll probably give priority in nation assignment to the experienced 4.

One thing to note regarding placement: two of our provinces are swamp, 296 and 299 corresponding to Melnorj's diagram postions 2 and 8. I can remove the swamp modifier if it will be a problem to any of our nations, but I'll keep em if it will be beneficial to any.

Thanks.

Can someone give me a primer in fatigue.
It seems to work rather oddly.

Not including reinvigoration or magic items, I need to know:

1. How much fatigue does a commander/melee unit recover per turn?
2. How much is required to move?
3. I noticed some commanders can still move even though their fatigue is over 100? Aren't units supposed to become unconscious or something at that level?
4. Magic using commanders: Some of the more powerfull spells require 100,200,300 or so in fatigue. How much fatigue does a mage recover between turns?
After casting say a 100 fatigue spell on the first round, I've noticed they only seem to recover like 3 or 4 points of fatigue, yet in subsequent rounds they are able (still highly fatigued) to cast another 100 fatigue spell without reinvig or anything, why is that?
What is the best order in terms of fatigue for casting spells, high fatigue first, then lower? After casting a 100 fatigue spell, I noticed that on the second round, I wasn't even able to cast a 20 or 40 fatigue spell like communion master.

Thanks for any help. If it is in the manual perhaps I can take the time to look.

melnorjr wrote:
I'm worried about vanheim and eriu. The vets having both of them is somewhat bad - they're going to use them for raiding, that's a given. I must admit I'm somewhat surprised by their choices, particularly mictlan

Yes Vanheim can raid. But I am more concerned with their very strong early game which is boosted by the settings.

Vanheim has two excellent sacreds (which are likely to be double blessed) and one of the best 'mundane' units in the game - the Skinshifter.

Early on it will be very hard to stop this combination. Vans can be made very hard to hit and hard hitting. Valkeryies are not so tough but with Flying (I think!) they can attack any mages / commanders at the back and screw up everyones scripting by flying in to your archers and having all your troops 'attack closest' them. Then there are the skinshifters. Stacks of damage potential and stacks of hp with their second shape. They are like unsacred Jags and although I expect they will use a strong bless there is a whole strategy of playing vanheim with strong scales and skinshifters rather than double blessed Vans.

Another thing to keep in mind when placing neighbors is of course heat/cold. Pan might not be bothered much (all things being relative), but then again, C'tis wouldn't mind say, Abyssia's heat (and then maybe put Bandar next to Abyssia). Caelum might in the same regard make Jotunheim a good neighbor. What other nations benefit from heat/cold, or at least need to take those sorts of scales?

Septimius Severus wrote:Can someone give me a primer in fatigue.
It seems to work rather oddly.

Not including reinvigoration or magic items, I need to know:

1. How much fatigue does a commander/melee unit recover per turn?
2. How much is required to move?
3. I noticed some commanders can still move even though their fatigue is over 100? Aren't units supposed to become unconscious or something at that level?
4. Magic using commanders: Some of the more powerfull spells require 100,200,300 or so in fatigue. How much fatigue does a mage recover between turns?
After casting say a 100 fatigue spell on the first round, I've noticed they only seem to recover like 3 or 4 points of fatigue, yet in subsequent rounds they are able (still highly fatigued) to cast another 100 fatigue spell without reinvig or anything, why is that?
What is the best order in terms of fatigue for casting spells, high fatigue first, then lower? After casting a 100 fatigue spell, I noticed that on the second round, I wasn't even able to cast a 20 or 40 fatigue spell like communion master.

Thanks for any help. If it is in the manual perhaps I can take the time to look.

1. 0. However, once they hit 100, subsequent turns that bring them below 0 will regenerate a small amount of fatigue and allow them to act again.
2. 0
3. Are you sure it's moving, especially of its own free will? I don't think it should.
4. 0. Spells that cost 100+ fatigue all cost gems, and if you use additional gems the amount of fatigue caused will be reduced. If a mage gets to over 100 fatigue, the same applies to them as with any other commander.

A mage can cast any spell it wants as long as it is below 100 fatigue. It just won't be able to cast again for a while after that. Order of spellcasting depends generally more on the priorities for your army. If you are casting a big spell to protect your army from something, you generally want to do that either on the first turn, or the second (having used the first most likely to create a communion). If you want to get as many spells off as possible before fatiguing out, you would want to cast low fatigue spells first. But fatigue should not take precedence over capability.

Septimius Severus wrote:Can someone give me a primer in fatigue.
It seems to work rather oddly.

Not including reinvigoration or magic items, I need to know:

1. How much fatigue does a commander/melee unit recover per turn?
2. How much is required to move?
3. I noticed some commanders can still move even though their fatigue is over 100? Aren't units supposed to become unconscious or something at that level?
4. Magic using commanders: Some of the more powerfull spells require 100,200,300 or so in fatigue. How much fatigue does a mage recover between turns?
After casting say a 100 fatigue spell on the first round, I've noticed they only seem to recover like 3 or 4 points of fatigue, yet in subsequent rounds they are able (still highly fatigued) to cast another 100 fatigue spell without reinvig or anything, why is that?
What is the best order in terms of fatigue for casting spells, high fatigue first, then lower? After casting a 100 fatigue spell, I noticed that on the second round, I wasn't even able to cast a 20 or 40 fatigue spell like communion master.

Thanks for any help. If it is in the manual perhaps I can take the time to look.

It is in the manual but it's not that easy to understand. Pages 75-76 (combat) & 86-87 (spell casting).

This is how it works - I think!

1) I think everyone gets back fatigue at a rate of 5 per turn (??) but you add it at a fair rate. But this may only apply when you are over 100 fatigue but I think you always get this back.

2) Moving and attacking (each set of attacks, so quickened units get more fatigue as they attack more, but those with say 6 attacks a turn naturally just get it once). Basically attack/moving fatigue is your encumberance value. So undead/0 encumberance units take no fatigue here and everyone else does.

3) I don't think anyone can move or do anything with over 100 fatigue. They can't even run away. So I don't understand thisunless they were being 'moved' by a trample or something. Or maybe they dropped below 100 fatigue - moved - which then took them back over 100?

4) Spell casters also get their encumberance fatigue when casting a spell. This might also apply to undead/zero encumberance commanders. i.e. I think that if you add some armour to them they still read zero encumberance but it is recorded and added when they cast a spell.

Re the spell casting the manual and game tells you the fatigue cost. Each spell level over the minimum you have reduces the fatigue cost. One spell level over (S3 casting an S2 spell like Mind Burn) reduce fatigue by 50%. An S4 casting the spell the spell would get fatigue of 1/3rd. An S5 would get just 1/4 fatigue from Mind Burn. This does not affect your added 'encumberance' fatigue which is always your encumberance and in addition to the spell fatigue.

Communions are therefore very helpful as they boost the spell levels of all casters (masters and slaves) and hence reduce fatigue costs for all.

Note that only fatigue over 200 physically harms you. I don't think you can get more than 200 by casting a spell yourself. It is capped at 200. So you can't kill yourself by casting. Communion slaves can get given more than 200 fatigue by other communion members casting and will take damage/die from it if you are not careful.

But once over 100 fatigue you should just stand there like a lemon unable to do anything. Plus pages 75-76 of the manual explains how you become more vulnerable and less effective at high fatigue levels. Basically you are more likely to lose protection and therefore take damage and critical hits when fatigued.

For the order of spell casting you basically need to work it out Once you go over 100 fatigue you stop casting anyway.

A solitary spell caster might buff (usually low spell fatigue per buff) then cast the one big spell which puts it in to 'fatigue sleep' for the rest of the battle. But of course you may want to simply cast your one big spell in the first round (if you can without buffs).

Unless you fear a first battle round hit of some kind it is almost always worth setting up your communion (if you can) on the first turn of battle. The spell casting boost to masters and slaves makes them last longer in the fight.

Re Communions. If you want your slaves to cast (as opposed to just soaking up fatigue) they must all be ABOVE the masters in the order of commanders. If even one master is above any slaves the slaves below it will not cast spells.

Ninjad!

I am fine with what ever nation you assign me, but I guess my comfort is something like:

Pythium
Agartha
Caelum

In no particular order. However, please put me in the best nation for the team. Once I am assigned a nation I will read up and get suggestions here.

Thanks.

In the interest of giving people time to work on their builds, I may well make the list tonight, so if you haven't told me what you want to play, do so quickly.

Regarding set up on your chart, melnorjr, I'd put the two strongest nations at positions 6 & 7 - the way the Vets' line bends in the middle, races at those two points could conceivably have a front with 3 Vets at a time (the Vets might even make that attempt at local numerical superiority part of a strategy - try to concentrate hard on one flank, and then just roll us up one at a time).

So who should those two be? C'tis with their Miasma and skeli-spam? And who else?

Yeah, that was the idea in putting c'tis where they are. I wasn't quite sure who to put in the other dangerous tip

Would anybody be interested in a blitz game? possibly to test and see if a strategy works on a player before trying it on the vets? even without knowing for sure which nation we will end up playing, we could post the results and the strategies and counters tried to the benefit of whoever happens to be playing the nations we use. I could even play as one of the vet nations so you can see how well a particular counter works. It would have to be somebody that can play through much of a game in a day or two.

Setting would of course be the same as the setting for this game.

Well, I've been goofing around with Arco and Pythium, and with good scales both can expand like mad (big gangs of stompy-elephants and hordes of serpent-cataphracts), and still have loads of cash for several early castles. But I might give the slight edge to Pythium, what with their slightly better diversity, especially in terms of national military (hydras, esp.). Both have high-end astral though, which might help tremendously if they rush up Thaumaturgy a bit.

I haven't played around with Jotunheim in a long while, so I can't comment on them. But nasty giants are always good Might have to play around with them a bit right now.

Was there any other nation you were considering for a "point" role?

TwoBits wrote:Well, I've been goofing around with Arco and Pythium, and with good scales both can expand like mad (big gangs of stompy-elephants and hordes of serpent-cataphracts), and still have loads of cash for several early castles. But I might give the slight edge to Pythium, what with their slightly better diversity, especially in terms of national military (hydras, esp.). Both have high-end astral though, which might help tremendously if they rush up Thaumaturgy a bit.

I haven't played around with Jotunheim in a long while, so I can't comment on them. But nasty giants are always good Might have to play around with them a bit right now.

Was there any other nation you were considering for a "point" role?

Honestly I don't really see good choices other than c'tis, pythium, arco, and jotun. We could put abysia up there - but I wanna be sure of their later game blood. We could put caelum there - but, lets face it, other than their elephants, their troops kinda suck. Ulm? Don't have the diversity and too vulnerable to magic for a front line. Bandar? They are a late game power, and while their elephants are great, they aren't a win-all, and I want bandar to have the time to go for late power. Pangaea might pull it off, but I like them working with c'tis. Machaka doesn't have the power, agartha just...no. to not suck early game agartha would have to have some kind of massive fire/earth bless with an imprisoned God and crap scales.
If you've got a suggestion though, go ahead, I'm open to it.