NvV3: Pre-game Discussion

melnorjr wrote:Honestly I don't really see good choices other than c'tis, pythium, arco, and jotun. We could put abysia up there - but I wanna be sure of their later game blood. We could put caelum there - but, lets face it, other than their elephants, their troops kinda suck. Ulm? Don't have the diversity and too vulnerable to magic for a front line. Bandar? They are a late game power, and while their elephants are great, they aren't a win-all, and I want bandar to have the time to go for late power. Pangaea might pull it off, but I like them working with c'tis. Machaka doesn't have the power, agartha just...no. to not suck early game agartha would have to have some kind of massive fire/earth bless with an imprisoned God and crap scales.
If you've got a suggestion though, go ahead, I'm open to it.

Nope, I'm coming to similar conclusions. I mean, in this 150% game set-up, almost everyone can have strong expansion, but only some nations will come off well in a hard pressed, early conflict. With Elephants, Hydras, Giants, and Miasma, plus loads of Astral and Death magic, those nations seem best suited to handling an early fight.

And luckily, we for the most part have plenty of redundancy if there's a SNAFU. We're pretty rock solid when it comes to Astral - even if both Pythium and Arco go down (OK, that would be really bad, but), Bandar is still in reserve. Jotunheim is strong in blood, but we'll have Abyssia of course, and Pangaea to a lesser extent, as back up. And in Death, we've still got Machaka, and obviously Shinuyama. So I think those 4 are a good call.

Well, I've goofed around a bit with Jotunheim, and found expansion to be very robust with a light blessing and good scales (tried an imprisoned Son of Fenrir W4N4), verses a stronger E9N4 (with the Earth Mother) - with the crappier scales of a bigger blessing, it's just hard to put together a rapid expansion (at least the way I was playing them - I have a pathological aversion to Misfortune scales ). Plus, research was much slower with the need to recruit H1/H2 giant commanders for blessings early on.

Anyhow, I saw good things out of all 4 suggested "point" nations, and would be happy playing any of them if you want me for that role. But I'll play any nation in any role you want me, if other teammates have a strong preference.


A little more to add with an edit here:

After some more testing with W4N4/power-scales Jotunheim, I'd be tempted to move them into spot 6 or 7 (the pointiest of the four points). Dang, they power up fast! Their secret (well, in addition to having giants, but that's not a secret), is the Vaetti Hag - this unit is super versatile, as they can be recruited at any fortress without a lab or a temple! In my first tester game just now, I had 5 fortresses, all set to recruit Skratti (recruit one Hag, next turn have her build a lab), by mid Spring of the 2nd year. All while sitting on 5000+ GP.

That might not be replicable in the actual game (vs. the AI, I was not always pumping out regular units each turn), but heck, that was just my first time screwing around with that blessing and the 150% game set-up. I'm sure more could be squeezed out of them with more focus. And while they're not quite Ashdodian giants, I think they'd match up pretty well with support, especially if their next-door neighbor (Caelum?) and/or their opposite 'pointer' (Pythium or Arco?) could help out with front line duties.

Hmm, you made some good points I rather forgot about in my sleep-deprived haze w/r to spell levels lessening encumbrance.

Also septimius, if you open a commanders statistics page and click on his encumbrance value, it will open a window that displays his base encumbrance, melee encumbrance, and spellcasting encumbrance. And as Hoplosternum said undead commanders with heavy armor will still be penalized for spellcasting encumbrance. So don't put the monolith armor on a tartarian and tell it to buff for 5 rounds without expecting it to wind up unconscious.



With regards to blitz games, I think it would almost be better to play through only 2 or 3 years worth of turns than necessarily trying to play a full game. But if you want you can certainly play through to completion if you do it.

The hard part with a blitz (aside from my location/schedule/wife ) is similar to the problem of trying to game stuff out in SP - you just can't accommodate the teammate-factor. For example, in SP, why not blow those 30 gems to empower to 2nd level? But it's much easier just to ask your teammate to forge you the booster (not to mention more cost effective) in team format. Or, "damn, I'd like to start a new fortress/temple/lab next turn, but I know I wont have the gold, guess I'll just have to wait", versus, "hey, can any teammate spot me X-gold next turn? I could really use it!".

Even so though, for those with the time, getting in some real life practice would obviously be useful, even if it's not 100% reflective of the "real" game. It'd certainly be more realistic than SP practice

TwoBits wrote:The hard part with a blitz (aside from my location/schedule/wife ) is similar to the problem of trying to game stuff out in SP - you just can't accommodate the teammate-factor. For example, in SP, why not blow those 30 gems to empower to 2nd level? But it's much easier just to ask your teammate to forge you the booster (not to mention more cost effective) in team format. Or, "damn, I'd like to start a new fortress/temple/lab next turn, but I know I wont have the gold, guess I'll just have to wait", versus, "hey, can any teammate spot me X-gold next turn? I could really use it!".

Even so though, for those with the time, getting in some real life practice would obviously be useful, even if it's not 100% reflective of the "real" game. It'd certainly be more realistic than SP practice

Yeah, I agree it is limited as a training tool, but it could help out some, in case anybody wants to try it.

I always thought that fatigue was halved if you had one magic level higher, quartered with 2 levels higher, etc. So it's 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5 etc? Interesting...

One problem with Jotun Hirdmen is that their attack values aren't that great so they won't connect too often with high defense thugs and SCs. With quick research, I suggest looking into an E9 bless. At construction-4 you will get shroud of the battle saint which costs 5 astral gems. Putting that on a werewolf, which has innate protection due to its werewolf-hood, plus the earth bless takes its prot to something like 15 or so. Throw on a horned helmet or something like that and you're up to 17 easy. Have them quicken self and possibly reinvigorate (they have water and blood) and they are a fantastic thug (frost brand or blood thorn are both great weapons).

Shroud of battle saint + frost brand + vine shield + antimagic amulet = 5W10S10N but it makes a thug who is damn hard to take down. If you don't go with a nice earth bless you'll need boots of the messenger as well.

In another game I recently had 3 werewolf thugs, blessed by 1S mages with luck and body ethereal giving the business to about 80 double-blessed jaguar warriors.

Honestly I find hirdmen to kind of suck except for meatshields, if you're playing someone decent. A well-endowed werewolf with some reanimated undead as chaff and a few hirdmen here or there to guard commander (prevents ganging up) is more effective than 60 hirdmen (costs much less in upkeep too) if you have the gems.

Oh, and boulder throwers are fun to use against thugs and will demolish any gates you come up against. Make sure that there are a thin layer of spearmen or hirdmen between the boulder throwers and the enemy charge and then watch the boulders crush knights, other giants, etc... I found they were very good against high HP/high prot/high def units.

If approriate to add here, I would also remind everyone of my previous suggestion regarding the placement of any nation with water/amphib capable units at either the 4 crescent tips or the second postion from each. Due to the larger amounts of water provinces in the corners of the map.

Though I'm probably less expert than many of you, I suspect the water provinces may play an important role in the vet strategy. It seems to me imperative that we take/hold as many water provinces as we can as early as possible. If necessary, say at the middle portions of the map, they can just be undead or amphibious forces which would enable us to exchange provinces with each other at will.

The vets have two provinces that are near to the water. I suspect their water capable nations Vanheim (sailing), and Ermor will be placed there. I would think they'd put Ermor at the cap near the southern pole, due to all the connections there. From the poles, especially the southern pole, the vets could dominate the water all around. And while we are attacking them from both sides on land, they could attack all of our caps from behind, since all of our caps are near the water. So I'd recommend Shin or whoever is our most capable amphib nation, be at or near the southern crescent points. But I'll leave it up to melnorj's discretion.

Thanks rdonj and Hoplo for your sage advice. I must say this whole communion and fatigue thing can get a bit perplexing. I understand the basics, 4 communion slaves gives a master a temporary 2 level bonus in all magics paths, but will this temporary level boost also grant a temporary magic level fatigue reduction in spell casting in addition to the fatigue reseviour available from the slaves?

So can a master with 4 slaves then go on to cast several 100,200,300 level fatigue spells without killing the slaves or exhausting himself?

Should communion masters cast master in the first round and slaves cast slave in the second, or does the order not matter, in terms of who will be who's master and who will be who's slave?

Also Hoplo, you said "Re Communions. If you want your slaves to cast (as opposed to just soaking up fatigue) they must all be ABOVE the masters in the order of commanders. If even one master is above any slaves the slaves below it will not cast spells."

How does one change the order of commanders on the army setup screen? Or are your referring to the order in which communion master/slave is cast?

Sailing can't actually get you into the water, it just allows you to travel over water provinces. So the sailing thing probably won't make a huge impact on the game.

Ermor is probably their best way into water, since they have the whole undead reanimation thing going for them. I don't know off hand if shadow vestals are amphibious and I'm too tired to feel like checking, but if they are that could be problematic. I don't think kappa can defeat them at anything resembling a gold for gold basis without mage support that they're unlikely to receive underwater. If they can't, then most of what you have to worry about is thugs, since kappa should be able to defeat most other units they can easily get into the water.

It's slightly more complicated than that, but I'm too tired to explain that properly right now. I'll give it a shot if no one has an answer for you when I get to my computer tomorrow.


However, I can answer the last two parts.

1. Communion masters and slaves can cast their respective communion spell on the same turn. It does not matter what order in which they do so. Just as long as you cast the appropriate spell. All masters will always control all slaves.

2. You can't change the order. The order that the commanders are lined up in the army setup screen is the order in which they cast spells. Also "If even one master is above any slaves the slaves below it will not cast spells." is not strictly true. A slave cannot cast spells if a master has already cast a spell that turn. However, on a turn in which a master does not cast a spell before them even if its turn is first (for example, it uses a ranged weapon or uses the "hold" command") the slave can cast without interference. So if you want to make a reverse communion it's incredibly convenient to give your master(s) a ranged weapon so your slaves can cast for a long period of time without the masters interfering and frying their puny minds.

Septimius Severus wrote:Thanks rdonj and Hoplo for your sage advice. I must say this whole communion and fatigue thing can get a bit perplexing. I understand the basics, 4 communion slaves gives a master a temporary 2 level bonus in all magics paths, but will this temporary level boost also grant a temporary magic level fatigue reduction in spell casting in addition to the fatigue reseviour available from the slaves?

So can a master with 4 slaves then go on to cast several 100,200,300 level fatigue spells without killing the slaves or exhausting himself?

Should communion masters cast master in the first round and slaves cast slave in the second, or does the order not matter, in terms of who will be who's master and who will be who's slave?

Also Hoplo, you said "Re Communions. If you want your slaves to cast (as opposed to just soaking up fatigue) they must all be ABOVE the masters in the order of commanders. If even one master is above any slaves the slaves below it will not cast spells."

How does one change the order of commanders on the army setup screen? Or are your referring to the order in which communion master/slave is cast?

Both Masters and Slaves are boosted by the bonus and the bonus affects fatigue.

Lets take an example. We will ignore mormal encumberance for now, although this is unaffected and still added each spell cast.

Lets say we have an S2 Master and 4 S1 slaves in a communion. This would make the master effectively an S4 and the slaves S3.

Lets say the Master casts a S3 spell which will cost 200 fatigue. He must have and pay the 2 astral gems. I believe the fatigue is spread between the Master and his Slaves. It is NOT shared with other masters in the Communion. But the slaves are communial, so they get fatigue from each master casting in a round.

This split is equal. So in this case it would be 200/5 = 40 each. Because the spell required path 3 this then affects the fatigue given. In this case it would halve for the master (as he is S4) so he would get 20 (+ his own encumberance fatigue). While each slave - as they are S3 - would get 40 (+ his own encumberance fatigue). But the Slaves could also get extra fatigue from other Masters casting. If a slave goes over 200 fatigue he starts taking damage - and then dies But until this happens you can go on casting high fatigue spells.

Sometimes the slaves, due to having nothing in that magic path, or from siply being too low level are below the level of the minmum to cast the spell. They are still a valid part of the communion and still count and get fatigue. I am not sure what happens here. believe they pay a penalty getting the fatigue * the number of spell levels down they are. But I am not sure of the mechanics here. But fatigue can really get high quickly if you are casting say fire spells with a Master with fire in a communion with none fire slaves.

As for changing the commander order on the army set up screen. I don't think you can unfortunately.

Often you just want your slaves to soak up fatigue so it does not matter where in the order they are. But if you want to organise a Reverse communion you need your slaves above all the masters (or it doesn't work as the slaves won't cast). And order sometimes matters if you are casting certain buffs. A Master casting a personal buff (for example the astral ones that boosts all paths by one) affects ALL masters and slaves in the communion. And if this boosts spell levels then you want this to be cast before a later master casts the 'big' spell so all Masters and Slaves benefit from the boosted level.

rdonj wrote:
Ermor is probably their best way into water, since they have the whole undead reanimation thing going for them. I don't know off hand if shadow vestals are amphibious and I'm too tired to feel like checking, but if they are that could be problematic. I don't think kappa can defeat them at anything resembling a gold for gold basis without mage support that they're unlikely to receive underwater. If they can't, then most of what you have to worry about is thugs, since kappa should be able to defeat most other units they can easily get into the water.

Shadow Vestals arn't Nor Lictors. And they have no amphibious commanders I believe (though Mound Kings are very easy to research too). It's their reanimated Longdeads and Souless that are poor amphibians. These will take awhile to build up in numbers.

So Ermor can easily get under water but not in the first few months.

The easiest way in to the water unless you actually have amphibious recruitables like Agartha (who really shouldn't be too close to the Vets I think as they are a slow starter) is an amphibious SC Pretender. He's called the Wyrm And I suspect the Vets will have one at each pole. Unless they have placed Vanheim there where they may go for the traditional double bless which means no awake Pretender usually. But Vanheim is strong with Skinshifters, decent scales and an awake SC too. Vans are still great raiders just not all conquering with no bless.

People discuss the workings of communions without referencing Baalz's guide on the subject?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=37499

Everyone has given lists or abstained from selecting but viccio and Skinu. I think we need to move forward.

LumenPlacidum wrote:Everyone has given lists or abstained from selecting but viccio and Skinu. I think we need to move forward.

Yes, you're probably right. I'll construct the nation assignments.

In that case, throw me in for Abyssia or Bandar Log. That may three games, three blood games.

LumenPlacidum wrote:People discuss the workings of communions without referencing Baalz's guide on the subject?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=37499

Yeah, but remember Baalz is now the enemy So can we trust his guide

I have been practicing with Arco. I am most experienced with those, Jotunheim (well late age Utgard but they are similar in many ways) and Pythium of the Tip nations.

If I am not on the tip then I've played a lot with Bandar and the none picked TC.

Anything is fine of course and the previous lists were the orders I'd like to play them

Jotunheim can be a water power too, with it's W3 Skratti (Construction 2 for the first water breathing items), so they should be fine on point. With them, I'd be tempted to head for Conjuration 1 first for a Black Servant prophet - undead giants should be good for going underwater, or anywhere Hm, I guess that only works if you get a D2 Gygia in time, may not be worth it...

Oh, and whoever plays these guys should check out Baalz' guide on Niefelheim - I think a lot of it, especially on how to use the skratti, applies here. Again, makes me think super-scales are the way to go - the more the merrier. I can see how an E9 blessing might be workable, but I guess I find designing a bless for a non-sacred unit a bit counter intuitive - they all require a magic item to be blessed, which reduces flexibility (not to mention scales tremendously). Best to just have lots more them, IMO

Just saw that the Vets have swapped Mictlan for T'ien Ch'i. That means they're back on the table for us, I presume, if anyone wants to play them.

TwoBits wrote:
Just saw that the Vets have swapped Mictlan for T'ien Ch'i. That means they're back on the table for us, I presume, if anyone wants to play them.

Wow! That was unexpected! I think we have underestimated TC. They are not one of the two worst land races in MA. But to give up the Astral/Bless nation of Mictlan. Well - I am surprised. Perhaps it's their lack of a Blood nation to get them in to the summons that has done it?

But I think this is good for us Even if we don't take Mictlan. Double bless rushes are not fun to deal with and Mictlan has recruit anywhere sacreds. But it's the less good Eagle Warriors rather than the Jags - who are capital only - in MA.

And good points about Jotun. I think the early undead route via a reanimating undead prophet is a great one with this map. But can the Black Servent lead? Maybe Enchant 2 for Mound King is better, if a little slower?

I have to go for a few hours, but here is what I'm proposing for the moment:

------1------V------7
---2---------V---------8
3--------------V----------9
4----------V--------------10
---5---------V---------11
------6------V------12



1.Pythium - Twobits
2.Shinuyama - Unoptimized
3.Bandar Log - Lavaere
4.Caelum - Skinu
5.Ulm - Joelz
6.Jotunheim - Hoplosternum
7.C'tis - Raiel
8.Pangaea - Septimius
9.Agartha - Pelthin
10.Abysia - Viccio
11.Machaka - Lumen
12.Arcoscephale - Melnorjr

if anybody has strong objections to the nation they are assigned let me know and we can try to work around it. Please begin forming your strategies as soon as possible. I considered switching somebody out for mictlan, but I'm not sure who I would switch out. If somebody expressly wants to play mictlan let me know, but it may be difficult to accommodate without significantly hurting our setup, but we may be able to work them in.

Actually, I don't think the other masters get the buffs cast by other masters. Only the slaves do. It's been a while since I used a communion but I'm pretty sure that's the way it works.

Okay, so I'll be playing Ulm. Good to know so I can practice a bit
One small question though. Was I suppose to be a bank nation and make lots of the anti- sacred halberdies?

Cool... based on rdonj's advice, I've converted my C'tis 5-dom start to a 9-dom start, but at the cost of taking drain-2. I don't think it will hurt in the short term, but long term research and gem income from random events will suffer.

Assuming they aren't daunted by the miasma, how quickly should I expect them at my door?

Woohoo, Bandar Log. Booo, next to Caelum.
Any Kentucky Fried Caelum, served to monkeys is not my fault. It's just some really pissed off Lankans getting revenge.