NvV3: Pre-game Discussion

Alright I am stumped on Agartha pretender in the team sense.

I think I am going for a High Magic Scale, to help with research to get my national golems faster.

High Domain for the buff to my golems is a big item as well, I read that they take the buff from the highest dom province they go through so, high dom is needed.

To maximize my blesses, I am going to go for Fire 4 and water 4.

Does this sound like a good team model, if I am going to be designated to get into the water and help there, as well as have some heavy hitting summonables?

Thanks.

TwoBits wrote:Well, I think everyone is going to need to take a hand in forging eventually. Ulm was mentioned because of its obvious forge bonus, and Shinuyama because of its powerful multi-path mages. But that wont cover everything we need, although if those two can make an early push in Construction, that would certainly help.

Hoplo is playing a "point" nation, right? Are we sure we want him focusing on forging? I mean, later, it might be nice if he can help out (nice if everyone can do it), but early on, folks on "point" should be worried about fighting, not forging/banking/blood-hunting/etc...

Anyhow, it would be nice if Shinuyama or Agartha could get out some Hammers early. Unless Ulm gets lucky on a 10% random, they likely wont see E3 until Construction-4 and Earth Boots (at that point, I hope they'll be crapping out Hammers like s**t from a goose!).

Yes, Caeulum has a forge-bonus unit, but it's only W1 (so, up to W3 with boosters later on). It would be great if they could set up a Frost-Brand factory though (and whatever other water items) at some point.

With two of our Astral powers on the "point" (Arco and Pythium), can Bandar help out with Astral forging, in addition to Clams?

Shinuyama can do Clams too (and who else?), but would need a Water booster to get started.

What else needs covering, and who else can do it?

Well I am very happy NOT to forge of course

But I and I expect others are going to need forged stuff within the first year. Ermor's Cavalry have etherial so need magic weapons to hit reliably. And we have enemy buffed pretenders to consider. Many of us will need some early weapons if they try and eliminate some of us early.

So while everyone may forge at the end. I think we definitely need some forgers early. Preferably with Hammers. But certainly forging stuff within the first year. I put myself forward as an option mostly because after grabbing some early anti SC Thaumatergy I can live without any magic for a while. Even Construction 2 stuff will boost my Skrattis & Thugs better than the buffs I can cast would so battle magic and summons are not essential. Plus eventually I can forge blood unlike most nations.

It's all a trade off. I think we need some early forging and that will hurt the early forger. So who can do that with least harm to thenm and our team? If I am under pressure early I would want say Caelum to be able to parachute in some Lightning spamming Seraphs or throw down a few Seeking arrows rather than forging. While I just can't research anything that will make much of a difference.

What about Pan? He will be recruiting lots of Pans (hopefully) so picking up an E3 (over 25% per Pan) and so early hammers is likely. They can research or forge while still gathering up their large numbers of Maenead followers. What sort of spells do they need early? Pan's are not very good thugs and do they need to be with his armies?

I am not sure about Bandar. Yes they would be good at it and they are 'back'. But they have easy expansion without needing their battle mages (so they can all research) and they have excellent flying four armed sacred astral/air Thug sunmmons from summon 5 or 6. So they could get those (and the self buffs they need to make them work) pretty early which I think outweighs their usefulness as a forger. We need these as soon as possible. So I think they should research Conjuration and buff schools.

Bandar - along with Caelum and later Pythium should be our fire brigade. They can jump in and save a struggling Noob anywhere on the map. Or do a mass attack on a single Vet to all but kill him off in a turn. With pressure from that Vets neighbours and scouting they parachute in thugs tailored to kill off what they will meet in each territory and reduce him to his forts in a single turn. Leaving the noob neighbours to move in besiegers to finish off the job. Rinse and repeat Well I am sure this is what the Vets would do in our position. Not sure whether we will have the skill to pull it off!

Pelthin wrote:Alright I am stumped on Agartha pretender in the team sense.

I think I am going for a High Magic Scale, to help with research to get my national golems faster.

High Domain for the buff to my golems is a big item as well, I read that they take the buff from the highest dom province they go through so, high dom is needed.

To maximize my blesses, I am going to go for Fire 4 and water 4.

Does this sound like a good team model, if I am going to be designated to get into the water and help there, as well as have some heavy hitting summonables?

Thanks.

There is still time to take Mictlan instead

Just after I've replied to it in the other thread

Hoplosternum wrote:Just after I've replied to it in the other thread

Sorry But since your reply also covered general strategies, it's probably appropriate there too

As far as Jotunheim and forging go, well, if you think it will make your own position stronger, go ahead and research Construction - I just don't think the rest of us should be relying on your output. As a nation right on the front lines, you'll likely need everything you can muster for your own needs (and plenty of help for your teammates too - as a point nation, I hope I get plenty! ). I mean, if you're in the s**t, don't waste your Skrattis' or Gygias' time forging stuff for me or someone else - get the Construction you want, to forge what you need, and use your other mages for combat or research or whatever.

hehe.. If Mictlan is better for the team, I will switch.

Here is what I have for a pretender, still play testing:

Moloch
Fire 4 +2 Attack
Water 4 +2 Def
Blood 3
Dom 7 70% buff to golems at full dom
Heat 1 Not to much of a pain for me
MisFortune 1 Gamble...
Magic 1 Adds to my research to get to National Summons.

What does everyone think?

Hoplosternum wrote:

Pelthin wrote:Alright I am stumped on Agartha pretender in the team sense.

I think I am going for a High Magic Scale, to help with research to get my national golems faster.

High Domain for the buff to my golems is a big item as well, I read that they take the buff from the highest dom province they go through so, high dom is needed.

To maximize my blesses, I am going to go for Fire 4 and water 4.

Does this sound like a good team model, if I am going to be designated to get into the water and help there, as well as have some heavy hitting summonables?

Thanks.

There is still time to take Mictlan instead

Hm, I might second that. Unless we really think Agartha is necessary to get into the water (we have Shinuyama, after all), or we think the Vets might take them (dang, I wish they would), maybe Mictlan would be the better choice? We've almost cornered the market on MA Blood (only Vanheim has escaped our grasp), so we should have plenty of slaves to feed Mictlan's going "evil". Might it not be nice to have loads of uber-blessed Jaguar Fiends (eventually) on our side?

If not, I'm kind of stumped as for a good Agartha pretender design. High Dominion and good scales (the TwoBits special )? Maybe I'll take a quick look at them and see what I can think of...


'After a quick look': Dang. You've got sacred giants, but they're really lame. You've got sacred mages, but they're all old. If you're looking for any blessing at all, I'd go with N4 (regeneration for the giants and Shrouds for your mages). What I don't know is what blessings are good for your summons - as statues and such, will they even benefit from a Nature blessing?

Hm, maybe just take good scales, or whatever will help you rule the seas with Shinuyama (maybe even an amphibious pretender, with some Water magic?)?

Were I playing agartha, I would probably take either an awake research god(sage) to help get to my summons faster or an awake SC to help with initial expansion that agartha has trouble with.


that being said, I don't have much experience with agartha. And if you want to switch to mictlan, you may if it is still allowed at this point.

There goes my plans for simple single forger and gem repository holder.

Hmm. Perhaps when I clean this thread up, and we've got our forgers, it can be used just for forging requests. It is possible the banker could also act as a reseviour not only of gold, but of gems, and slaves. The 3 or 4 forgers could then go to the banker, along with everyone else for any extra gems they may need to forge whatever they been asked. This may simply people having to send gems to 3 or 4 different people.

Your right, the point people will probably have their hands full, so the forgers and the banker can be the other 8, if they've the ability.

Do let us get this nailed down soon. I really hate disorder and confusion. If you guys agree with my idea, lets identify the 3 or 4 forgers, the banker(central resevoir person) and get these threads ready to go by Saturday, as well as any other single person roles we may need.

So Joelz, possibly Hoplo, who else?

We can have a banker/central reserve person (see my post on The Forge) who can handle gold,gems,slaves and provide these resources to forgers and anyone else when needed. Players can opt to either donate a portion of their leftovers after every turn or donate a portion of any random (thus unexpected, non-harmful) winfalls they get from random events.

What say you?

I am having good luck with my pretender build, but I have not moved my Pretender and am expanding steady. I think I will work up a different build using the Arch Mage or sage.

Yeah Two bits you hit the nail on the head, even my Infantry is lame.

The scales I took are for my Golems, and from what I have read, Reg does not work on the Golems, hence the Fire/Water blesses.

Maybe I will look at Mitclan, is that an okay nation to take now, or am I set with Agartha?

Thanks.

I've no objection to you switching, but you would have to ask septimius.

One of the most important things to have available is boosters. So try to be sure you can cover all the boosters up to construction 6 at a minimum. Unless you want to have to empower a lot of mages due to lack of boosters. With your numbers advantage this may be possible, but it is still not a good idea.

Empowering some of ulm's smiths to forge in blood to make blood stones however is probably a good idea.

Pan needs...

1. Early buffs for the gorgon.
2. Army enhancing and armor destruction spells.
3. Some thaumaturgy.
4. Summon earthpower.

Pans won't make great thugs, but I bet with just a frost brand, a vine shield and a girdle of might they'd make perfectly serviceable thugs for PD raiding. They would need to do some buffing though.

To simplify things, we could make someone the banker/alchemist, who could recieve gold, slaves, and just astral pearls (since pearls are the gold standard of gems and can be turned into anyother).

Do we have any volunteers for the position?

If there is no interest I will assume you guys feel such a role would not be helpful and I will consequently delete the thread. Or I will assume the role myself.

I want to start by Saturday, so lets get those pretenders in ASAP.

We also need a replacement for Unoptimized, Stretch or Kietsensei being our alternates, very soon. If not we will have to wait till Wednesday for Unoptimized to get back up.

If you know of any noob candidates for alternates, have em join ASAP.

Thanks.

Agartha will be good for our water game, but if you really want to switch to mictlan, you must let me know very quickly.

It seems plausible that I'm replacing Unoptimized as Shinuyama. I'm bashing through year 1 with a couple different builds in SP right now, but the nation has so many options that I'm almost at a loss.

I'm currently contemplating the following pretender build:

GK Awake
E1S4D1 Dom 9
Tu3 Pr3 H/C(?)3 Gr0 Lk3 Dr2

I'm looking at going for Dai-Bakemono (efficient gold:resources) and want the GK for early expansion, and later he can do forge duty. I'd like to start with A2, but I can't seem to find the points. (E1 lets me make crystal coins and shields with earth boots, something my national mages can forge). Is S4 enough to make my pretender not a target?

Obviously, Cold would be the logical temperature extreme with a GK, but I don't want to give a veteran nation a temperature advantage invading me. Does anyone know if a heat or cold scale is beneficial to any of the veteran nations - in particular Vanheim strikes me as plausibly cold-advantaged.

I'm hoping to make up the income loss in luck events, and also benefit from the large gem income (since I seem to have a lot of national summons).

I am a little worried that my battle mages are all old, and I have a neutral growth scale. Can I afford Drain 3 to snag Growth 1?

So, does that all seem plausible? Am I doing something really stupid?

I would like to know which build you guys think would be better. Please post your opinions soon. After all, the game is suppose to start saturday and it's friday already.

1.
Dormant Forge Lord F5 E6
Dominion 6
Order 3 Productivity 3 Heat 0 Growth 1 Luck 0 Drain 3

2.
Dormant Forge Lord F2 E2 S4 D5
Dominion 6
Order 3 Productivity 3 Heat 1 Growth 1 Misfortune 1 Drain 3

Hmm, well, I was going to quote all the things we've said about shinuyama but I can't find one of my posts. Maybe I'll look for it some more later. I'll just point a few things out for now.

1. Hopefully you shouldn't need your pretender to forge earth/astral, and I think other people were already talking about having astral on a forge lord. If other people are going to go that route, you should theoretically not have to in this game.
2. Astral 4 isn't too bad for avoiding magic duels, but on a pretender it is still a bit too low. Someone provided a figure for exactly that much astral vs astral 1 casters recently in the LA Utgard guide thread. You can expect to lose 5 S1 casters to kill an S4... that's not much to kill a pretender. So personally I would just scrap the astral altogether, particularly as the vets have better than that available.
3. If you're going to take a negative temperature scale, cold is probably ideal for this game. Ashdod gets bonus points for heat, so they will lose a significant amount of income in any province with cold dominion in it. On the other hand vanheim does prefer cold 1. I don't think any of the other vets have preferred temperature scales.
4. Shinuyama's battle mages are old, but they have lots of death magic which reduces their chance to become afflicted. So you shouldn't lose too many of them to old age. On top of that they have lots of health. So you can just leave the diseased ones at home researching for another 20 turns or give them a ring of regeneration and they'll survive. As long as you avoid death scales you really should be fine.

Personally I kind of like shinuyama's 25 point immortal bakemono pretender. You can just give him a little fire and death and he isn't half bad. Anyway I'll let you work out the details of how you want to build your pretender. Just make sure you can get a decent expansion rate (15+ provs by the first turn of year 2 at least) as you will be in on the action quickly.

#2 imo

Oh yeah, I forgot about magic duels and such. Okay, I abandoned the astral leaving me with fire, earth and death. I also swapped the heat to cold.

Dormant Forge Lord F3 E3 D6
Dominion 6
Order 3 Productivity 3 Cold 1 Growth 1 Luck 0 Drain 3

Ok, so i'm ~6 turns into a game with the GK as above and i'm noticing just how awesome my Dai-bakemono archers are. I've got ~10 provinces already, and am capturing ~4/turn. And this is with a total absence of events except one that increased PD by 15 (oh yay). Ie, I expect to have more cash/gems than this (not that gems would be relevant yet).

Assuming I can rely on someone else to provide me with astral toys (i'll trade!), that means I can focus on useful magic for early game indie fighting on my pretender.

So, I'm looking at D4 + some minor dabbling for magic. I can get 2 other paths at 1 and D5, or X1X2 and D4. Or I can go up to drain 3 and generally increase my options.

I'm considering two of:
Water: Breath of Winter
Nature: Barkskin
Air: Air Shield (no research necessary)
Earth: Iron/Stoneskin

I should note that A2E1 allows me access to Dai Tengu. Not sure if it'll be worth my pretenders time, but I expect by midgame he'll mostly be sitting around forging or casting rituals or even contributing to research.

So, anyone have any thoughts as to what magic paths I should take on my pretender? And is it worthwhile to take Drain3 to increase my magical power?

Edit: My last pretender randomly gave me the name "Angmar" - I think i'm keeping that one.

Edit2: Drain 3 allows D5X2X2, fwiw.

Joelz wrote:Oh yeah, I forgot about magic duels and such. Okay, I abandoned the astral leaving me with fire, earth and death. I also swapped the heat to cold.

Dormant Forge Lord F3 E3 D6
Dominion 6
Order 3 Productivity 3 Cold 1 Growth 1 Luck 0 Drain 3

I agree with rdonj. The original number 2 pretender was the best A forge lord with astral for cheap rings later is very very very good

Don't worry about magic duel. Your forge lord should rarely if ever leave his Capital so should not be at risk. If you are fighting there well you (and we!) have bigger troubles than magic duel.

While I agree magic duel is a risk the vets are not astral heavy now Mictlan has been replaced by TC. TC does have plenty of astral one mages but he is likely to put them in communions to boost his Celestial Masters (or Alchemists if he follows Baalz's suggestions) and it is he with his high cost but low astral who will be worried about magic duel.

The main risk is if you put low astral on a Combat pretender (especially who isn't immortal). I have a potential combat pretender (spell support) and I've kept him astral free for this reason despite the nice astral buffs.

I am going to stick with Agartha and my Moloch.

I ran through the first 50 turns against AI's and did pretty well. I did get a hero on turn 2, which was a surprise. But man he was old.

Anyways, if someone really thinks I should change I will.